New Life LIVE: July 10, 2026

Brian Perez: New Life Live begins right now. Thank you so much for watching and for listening to us. Aren't you glad there's Christian counseling radio? And it's all because of you, your prayers and your financial support to this ministry. God bless you guys. My name is Brian Perez. I'm here with Dr. Jim Burns and Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer. We've got some phone calls awaiting, so we'll get to you guys in just a moment. Dr. Sheri, what's on your mind to start us off?
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: This actually came out of the last time the three of us were together, just listening to some of those who were calling. It just makes me think about how important connection is to body, soul, mind, and spirit. Let's talk neuroscience for a second. Our neurological brain, mind, and body is set up so when you experience pain, painful things, your body and mind want to protect you from that pain. Because of that, we often isolate, pull away, are worried about sharing our story, and it's almost the worst thing we can do because the way we're designed, the antidote is actually co-regulation. What is co-regulation? If you just listen to our show for any period of time, when somebody calls in to ask a question, you'll notice that they begin to soften as we're talking, as we're caring for their heart. They go from asking a question which feels very in your mind, like cognitive, just a thoughtful thing. That co-regulation takes them into their heart. Why do we talk about being in our small groups or doing 12-week classes here? Because we believe in co-regulation. Co-regulation means I'm hurting, and I reach out and I have a conversation with you, Brian, or I have a conversation with you, Jim. In safely sharing what's really going on, my neuroscience, my brain, my body begins to tell me that it's okay to let down, that I can let those things out. When we share, we begin to not only co-regulate our bodies and quiet our hearts from being in that more constricted place of fight, flight, or freeze, but we begin to reduce isolation. We move towards others rather than away. We build emotional intimacy, so I begin to connect. Not shallow connection, but when we go into the not-good place and we share our heart with safe people, something begins to soften and melt inside. We can name our experience. Having somebody else listen to us, sometimes just hearing ourselves talk. I'm an external processor. I know people who are internal; they journal. I don't really discover myself unless I'm talking to someone else. For me, that group process is really critical. I'm in a group that I'm a participant in that's starting on Friday, and I'm really looking forward to that. Then we can feel our feelings. Sometimes it's in sharing or hearing others share that we discover our own feelings. The neuroscience, the body, the mind, the spirit, how God made us—it's what we're doing here. We're co-regulating with each other. Hopefully, you'll think about that as you're sharing or being a safe place for someone else to share.
Brian Perez: Maybe you don't have someone to share with. That's why we are here to connect you with Life Recovery Groups in your area. If you just want to call in and talk to one of the co-hosts here, we can put you on that path to healing. We'll be right back with some of your phone calls on New Life Live.
Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.
Brian Perez: Quick reminder before we go to the phones: today is the last day to sign up for the Intimacy and Marriage Weekend. It is happening in Washington, D.C. It begins two weeks from today. You can sign up for it at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Again, the discount ends today, so call us and get that discount. Let's go to the phones now. Here is Anne in New Jersey. Welcome to New Life Live, Anne.
Guest Anne: Hello. I'm okay. I'm struggling with anxiety. It's an anxiety and fear battle for six years now. I've made some major changes in my life. I found a good church and go to Bible studies. I've been reading on my own. I have gone through my second counselor. It's pastoral counseling because of OCD-like thoughts that hit me in the morning coming off bad dreams. I've come a long way. Some days are good, some days I struggle. I have really great weeks, but I always seem to come back to that morning struggle where it throws me into anxiety, fear, and panic attacks. I don't know what direction to go next because I've done a lot of studying. I've listened to some counselors online that have given great counsel. I don't know what direction to take next because I'm still feeling semi-alone in this battle, even though I see a lot of people struggling around me because I don't really talk through it other than with my counselor. I'm not really sure how to win this battle completely and be able to walk free.
Brian Perez: When you say you can't talk through it that well with the counselor, is it because you're afraid to say things or you're not sure how to formulate words?
Guest Anne: I think sometimes it's afraid of what's triggering me, and I feel maybe a little restricted in what I say. It may be that I'd speak better with a female, and this is a male. I noticed when I tried to get into a 12-step group, which is mainly male, I had problems speaking out. I feel very insecure. I think it's more insecurity on my part, and maybe even a little bit of a struggle that I don't want to keep giving it strength, going back to six years ago and giving the trauma strength or giving the underlying root problem strength. I'm just not really sure why I struggle with it.
Dr. Jim Burns: Anne, did something happen six years ago that increased this anxiety?
Guest Anne: Yes, I did. I was having bad dreams, which is what I have now in the morning, which caused the struggle, which triggered me. It sent me into extreme fear and had me under a lot of trauma, which wound me up in a hospital.
Dr. Jim Burns: I have two quick thoughts. One would be you probably want to talk to a therapist as opposed to pastoral care. Stay with pastoral care because that's awesome, I love that. But I would look for a female therapist who would understand the dream aspect and all the other things with you. You're going to have to find somebody in your area. There are great therapists there. I would find a therapist as opposed to pastoral care. Again, I'm not saying you don't have pastoral care, you just talk to both if you need to. I would go with a female. I think I would feel more comfortable if I was you with the same-sex relationship. The other thing is I'd be in a group because there are groups out there of people who are like-minded who have different levels of anxiety. Just hearing their story, you kind of go, "Oh, I'm not alone." Then there's a supportive concept where they understand where you are and where you've been. Maybe they've had something similar. Those are two steps. It takes energy, time, and with a therapist sometimes some money, but the point being is those are two things. You seem like a person who really wants to grow. Those are two practical steps that you could take that I think you'd look back and call us in a year and say those were really good moves on my part because I feel a sense of community, I feel a sense of growth, I was able to share with this person on a deeper level, share with this group on a deeper level. Those are things that I know New Life can help with too.
Brian Perez: Would you suggest a group of all women?
Dr. Jim Burns: I would. I'm in a group with all men. I love it. I was with them last Tuesday, and it was awesome. It was kind of the Jim day because of some stuff I'm going through, and I felt so safe. I'm not sure I would have felt as safe with a larger group or a group of men and women, but I've been with these people for a long time. I feel very safe with them to share. When you are vulnerable, as Sheri was talking about at the beginning of the broadcast, they don't go, "Oh, you're a little crazy." What they do is they then share their own stuff. It's really good.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: I'm sitting here smiling, and you're probably wondering why. It's because I'm imagining you as a little girl. I'm imagining that you didn't miss much, that you picked up on the subtleties of life, of people, of emotions, of feelings. I imagine that you were moved and are moved by beauty. You probably were that little kid that would find the flower, and you might see an animal and hope that it's okay or worry if it's not. Does that describe you when you think about it?
Guest Anne: Yes, definitely. Artistic, spiritual.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Okay. So I'm moving. It's moving my heart because I think you're a combination. I love the fact that you even mentioned OCD, because what that tells me is you've done a lot of research about you. You've been fierce in trying to understand how God made us. Those that come to me that have OCD, they are amazing people. I think OCD gets a bad rap. These are people who create order out of chaos naturally. My Director of Operations has your brain type, and I couldn't run my world without her at the helm because she takes and organizes everything and helps keep me. I always tell her I want you to be the boss of me. So there's a real upside to it. Let me talk about being the other thing, which is an HSP, and this is highly sensitive person. There's a book by Elaine Aaron called *The Highly Sensitive Person*. It's who you are and how God made us. When you have somebody who's an HSP—they pick up everything—and they have a combination of OCD, what happens is they feel deeply about many things, and those things get stored into containers in your brain. Kind of like a refrigerator that has a bunch of Tupperware containers. Those experiences and feelings where you feel deeply, where you've been hurt, they go onto shelves in the refrigerator. Then your shelves get really full. Then all of a sudden, you just go, "Man, I'm starting to wake up with anxiety and panic attacks, and what is going on?" Well, Anne, your refrigerator needs to be cleaned out. It's got too many Tupperware containers in it. But your Tupperware containers, there's reasons they're in there. You felt a lot. I do something called EMDR; it stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It's a form of treatment. I don't know when you went into the hospital, did anybody do it there with you or no?
Guest Anne: No. Maybe two years after I went to somebody who was going to do EMDR, but I was so afraid of everything that she couldn't start it with me. She kind of told me I can't do this.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: She probably needed to feel like you were stable and grounded enough, and you may be more ready now. When I'm doing EMDR and all these Tupperware containers, I don't take them out all at the same time. That would be a real mess to put everything on the kitchen counter. I'm a consultant, so it's the highest level of training you can get, but I do it one Tupperware container at a time. You and I would just clean it out, and with that would come some emotions, some feelings, the negative belief that's attached to it, which is probably "I'm not in control." I think that's probably one of your bigger ones. I would clean that out one at a time around situations where you didn't feel like you were in control. I'm imagining there's been a number of them. But there's hope for you, my dear. I would direct you towards a consultant in EMDR. I would encourage you to get the book *The Highly Sensitive Person*, and I just want to give you hope. There's lots of healing for that. And dreams—dreams are parables. Just like Jesus taught in parables, our dreams are like trying to tell us there's a Tupperware container that has some pain in it. I will actually take people's dreams and, like parables, so they're less scary, we try to look at a theme that's a part of that, and then I attach it to a trauma and then we do work around that trauma. Lots of hope, girl. Don't lose heart.
Guest Anne: Thank you, because I don't feel so hopeful right now. I feel a little overwhelmed.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Well, overwhelmed, I want you to think about it like a refrigerator and Tupperware containers. You have reason to feel overwhelmed; there's a lot of them in there. But you can work with somebody who's skilled that can take them out, organized, one at a time.
Brian Perez: We'll find someone in our network who can help you there in Flemington, New Jersey. Thank you so much for calling us. We also did a webinar a few months ago called *Freedom from Fear and Anxiety*. It was done by Becky Brown and our guest was Patsy Clairmont. We're going to send you a link to that webinar just for calling in today. God bless you. Thanks for listening to us there in Flemington, New Jersey. I'm Brian Perez, here with Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer and Dr. Jim Burns. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll come back with more of your phone calls. What is it that's troubling you? What is it that you want to talk about? If things are not going well, you might tell your friends, you might tell people in the elevator, "I'm fine, how are you?" But you're hurting inside. That's why we are here. That's why we've been doing this for almost 40 years now. We've got so many resources and videos and books on our website that you can get at NewLife.com. Some of them are even free of charge or very low cost. Again, go to NewLife.com. You can also find out about our upcoming webinars and courses and intensives. It's all there at NewLife.com.
Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.
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Brian Perez: Let's go back to the phones now. Here is Antoine in Willingboro, New Jersey, who listens to us on a podcast. Thank you, Antoine, for calling in today. How can we help you?
Guest Antoine: Well, as for how I'm doing, rested because I took extra days off from work, which I was able to do, and basically confused. My sister and I—my sister is more involved than I am because she lives with my mother—we're trying to figure out whether my mother is just continuing her behavior of being very authoritarian, helicopter-ish, focused on behavioral management, and really just overly critical and demeaning, or whether we are looking at her entering into the stages of dementia, which runs in her family. Her mother had it, her youngest sister, my sister is taking care of her, living with my mother and her. She said some very incredibly harsh things to my oldest daughter. She's said cruel things to my sister and I our whole lives, but she's saying some pretty cruel things to her. I have been spared that because I fight back and I back my mother down because I won't put up with it. On the other side is when my mother tries to actually be nice, I don't trust it. My wife is always looking at me like that. It's something that I've worked on and I have done better with, but now with her acting like this, no, I don't trust it and I shouldn't. I'm trying to figure out how I can help my sister trying to figure out what's the next step to go that's going to actually help support my sister. What I was going to do is basically write a letter to my mother with all the different things that she's done, let her know that I'm disappointed, then follow it up with a phone call. I'm just not sure if that makes sense. My mother was tested for dementia and it came up negative, just memory loss. But I'm having some severe doubts about that, and that was just probably a month or two ago. On top of which my mother was also diagnosed with a very slow-moving form of cancer, and she is not being treated with chemo but medication that basically slows the progression or stops it. My mother is in her mid to upper 80s at this point.
Dr. Jim Burns: Well, there's a lot going on. I think you have a good attitude in the sense of you're not going to fix this, even the letter. But I'm thinking more about your sister. Your mom needs care, and I appreciate your care and your involvement. I really appreciate your sister's care and involvement.
Guest Antoine: Oh, by the way, my sister is actually on conference call just so she can hear the call. She's muted, but she's actually there.
Dr. Jim Burns: Hi, sister. I'm really glad she's on, by the way. What's your first name so that we just don't call you "sister" all day?
Guest Janine: Janine.
Dr. Jim Burns: How would you add to what your brother said?
Guest Janine: He's pretty much summarized it. My mother, she's very distrustful right now. She's been accusing me of things, and she's accused other people of things. Turns out most of these things are false. I keep telling her, "You need to ask questions. You can't assume that you know what's going on." I have a caregiver that comes in for my aunt on a daily basis to help me, and my mother accused her of stealing something that she didn't do.
Dr. Jim Burns: Janine and Antoine, hang on, you guys. It's like a party line. That's what we're doing today on New Life Live. But we've got to take a break, so we'll be right back with the rest of the conversation.
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Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.
Dr. Jim Burns: Two for the price of one here. We've got Antoine and Janine calling from New Jersey. You guys still with us?
Guest Antoine: Yes.
Dr. Jim Burns: Actually, I'm going to give you a phrase. I give this phrase all the time, but protect and honor. You guys are honoring your mother in a beautiful way because you're still in relationship, and she's a hard one to be in relationship with. So how beautiful for that. I would imagine you guys aren't young children. You can honor, but then also protect—protect your own heart. When I said you can't fix her, I mean you can do things to help her, like have her get an assessment, and her assessment was at this point that she doesn't have dementia. But there's a story behind the story in terms of why she acts the way she acts. What I'm saying is you want to make sure that you two spend the time on what we can do to build some healthy boundaries. Boundaries aren't walls; boundaries are structure. So how do you have the structure to say, "Okay, we're going to get Mom and we're going to get us through this." Again, I think that comes with getting wise counsel. The Bible says where there's no counsel, the people fall, and in the multitude of counselors there is safety. I love that scripture. It seems to me that your plan forward is a messy plan. I'm thinking that God kind of goes, "Well, I'm okay with messes." But it's a messy plan because you don't know what it's going to be like. You don't know how that medicine is going to affect her with the cancer medicine. You don't know where she's going to be next week or next month or this afternoon. One of the things you've got to do is make sure that you have the circle of support around you to be a support to her but not take it as personal, even though that's really hard to do when it's Mom. Developing the right kind of structure around you will help you then continue to honor your mother. If you don't, you're going to get bitter, angry, resentful, and that's not going to be any benefit to anybody, especially you guys.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Where's the cancer at? I know it's slow-growing. Do you know what, is it throughout her body or?
Guest Antoine: It's in her liver. I'm sorry if you can't hear me.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Okay, so it's in her liver, which is the cleansing part of her body. When did she start the medication?
Guest Antoine: She had her first treatment last month. She'll have her second treatment on Monday.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Antoine, when did she react to your daughter? When did she say something to your daughter?
Guest Antoine: This was about a month or so ago. I think it was right before her birthday. I think it was not even a month ago. About a week and a half ago.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Guess what I'm wondering? Jim said something that made me think about this cancer intervention drug. Do you know when we are on cancer intervention drugs, do you know that those drugs go into our body? This one's supposed to fight whatever's going on in her liver, but do you know that those medications go into her brain through the brain-blood barrier and people begin to have behaviors that are exacerbated because of that? I was like, this sounds interesting. It might be that her temporal lobes, which is a part of her brain that modulates moodiness. When you talked about how she felt like the person who's coming in stole something, I began to wonder about...
Guest Antoine: Oh, that was before the cancer drug, though. That was before.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Okay. Well, what I'm wondering, you might notice more irritability. I'm going to read some of the temporal lobe things that are specific. Might be more irritable, kind of angry with little provocation, confusion, fear for no reason, even mild paranoia. There's fear and anxiety. I think your mom has been more negative, she's been more depressed throughout you guys' lives. That's that critical obsessing, she ruminates. But my goodness, you add a chemical into her brain, she might not only be experiencing that moodiness through the depression, but she might be more anxious now. That's like a whole different level of Mama. It might feel like it's another level. This idea of writing her the letter and telling her about her behaviors, the bad behaviors, I'm not sure it's going to help. I don't think that's going to help. I think it's going to be taking a step back, beginning to ask more questions about newer behaviors and seeing it from the lens of possibly it could be because of some of the medication she's on. And Antoine, Janine has given you a really good model. And the model is, "I'm not going to take it" model. When I say that, what do I mean? Janine, are you living with her?
Guest Janine: Yes.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Do you know how difficult it is to be the one that's living with the mama who's been critical and ruminating and depressed and angry all your life, and then you add anxiety? It's like pouring kerosene on the fire. I want to really encourage you, you're going to need very faithful self-care and boundaries. Because when you're dealing with someone with your mom's issues, to say, "Mom, what you just said really hurt me. Because of that, I'm going to take some time away from you. I'm going to go to another room, and I may not come back for a little bit until you and give you some time to think about it because I'm here to care for you, I'm not here to be hurt by you. So I'm asking you to think about what you're saying to me because that really hurt my heart." Sometimes we're really afraid to talk to our parents that way, especially if they're old and aging and crotchety and they've got all these depression, anxiety. But sometimes that shift in saying, "I'm not going to be around you right now, I need to step away," their fear about being alone can sometimes trump their manners. They realize, especially if you follow through with it and you just take an hour away, a couple hours away or whatever, have another caretaker come in, take the afternoon off. They can readjust their meter, especially if there's a consequence that involves you taking care of your heart. But we can feel mean when we do that. Antoine doesn't feel mean, he feels protective. Janine, I just would encourage you, if you are feeling mean, you're not being mean. You're putting up a boundary of protection around your heart that's being hurt by your mom right now. It's a structure that you build that protects your heart in the midst of it, so taking that time away is not selfish. Taking that time away is self-care, life-giving even to her, your mom. Your mom won't understand that, but that was well-spoken, Sheri, in terms of just how to talk with a mom who we love but at the same time can be driving us crazy. They can change because they've almost turned into the now you're taking care of the child as opposed of taking care of the parent that you wish they were. That bad behavior doesn't need to be tolerated. The Bible talks about guard your heart; it's the wellspring of life because everything you do flows from it. You guys both have been shish-kebabbed for your whole life by her depression, anxiety, and negativity and sarcasm. It's okay to guard your heart. Antoine and Janine, great hearing from you guys today on New Life Live.
Brian Perez: It's almost break time, but I think we can talk to Cat before we go to the break and see what's going on there in Cincinnati. Welcome, Cat, to New Life Live.
Guest Cat: Hello, Brian, Dr. Sheri, and Dr. Jim. I will read my question, and then of course there's lots of facts to it, but I'll just let you ask me some questions. Basically, I'm just calling to see what I can tell myself to calm myself down when I hear people talking about prodigals, when my two older children and their spouses are like that right now.
Brian Perez: So your two older children and their spouses are prodigals, and you're saying that you're getting down on yourself because of that?
Guest Cat: Well, like when I'm in church, if the pastor says "prodigals" or "let's pray for the family" or "keep the enemy away from the family," I start crying. I speak scripture over them and I know how to pray about it, but I still, it's upsetting thinking what might happen to them if they don't come back to the Lord.
Brian Perez: We've got to go to break, Cat. We'll continue our conversation with you when we come back here on New Life Live.
Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.
Brian Perez: Let's go back to Cat in Cincinnati, who called in because her two adult children are not walking with the Lord; they're prodigals. So are the spouses of these children. Cat goes to church, Cat prays for them and everything, reads scripture over them, goes to church, and then the pastor mentions things that might happen if these kids don't get their lives right with the Lord, and it just makes Cat sad, as it should. Sheri, what do you say to Cat?
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Well, I was actually wondering if Jim would go first because this is your wheelhouse. When your adult child strays, I would call those prodigals, and I just want to honor you by hearing you.
Dr. Jim Burns: Well, Cat, I definitely have opinions. I hear this every day about kids who are adults who are deconstructing their faith. I also hear good stories too. For example, when you look at the Gen Z world, yeah, they're deconstructing, some of them are, and they're walking away, but they're also coming back in droves. In fact, the latest research says that some of these people who are heartbreaks because of them being prodigals are coming back. They're coming back for community, they're coming back because their parents are faithfully praying for them, they're coming back because they saw integrity and authenticity within the church that they now miss. So please hear that you're in it for the long haul. First of all, I'd say stay in their story. Second of all, I would say good parents have kids who make poor choices and kids who decide to stray away from God, so it's not all on you. I just keep finding so many parents, especially moms, with broken hearts. It cuts deep. They feel shame. The pastor talks about it, and then they feel their shame and they say, "Only if we could have, we should have. Well, maybe we shouldn't have argued so much, maybe we should have prayed more together, maybe I shouldn't have got that divorce or I shouldn't have worked so many hours," whatever it might be. That's a hard place to be because again, we tend to take it on ourselves. But I want to give you hope that this generation, especially Gen Zs but also some Millennials, they do move back. Sometimes they move back with some bruises on, and they made poor choices even in who they chose to be with. Please know that. I want to ask you a question about prodigals. Does this mean, are you defining them as people who now do not believe in God and have left the church? Because there's other definitions where I call them nomads or exiles. Nomads are ones who are just kind of wandering. They still would consider themselves Christian, but they're just kind of in nowhere land because they don't buy the church. They're mad at the church because they think the church is too political or they think the church is too dogmatic or they think the church has different things going on with sexuality or whatever. So there's all kinds of ways of looking at it. Exiles are ones who they haven't walked away from faith, they've just walked away from the church and they've got some struggles with the church. Tell me about your kids. Where would they fit in?
Guest Cat: Well, my daughter, they all used to go to church except for my daughter-in-law. She comes from Vietnam, so half of them practice in her family Christianity, half practice Buddhism, but she doesn't practice it. But yes, they, my daughter just said to me a couple weeks ago, she said, "Now, you know, now I'm not Christian, but blah, blah, blah." Well, she was Christian, but now she's saying she's not. They're involved in like gay pride parades and all that stuff. They grew up in the church, we had a great family life, and we did devotions and prayers and all that. I don't really blame myself, I'm just afraid that they might go to hell.
Dr. Jim Burns: I think sometimes the people who call themselves prodigals or who would identify as a prodigal, and it sounds like they might, is sometimes they forfeit their spiritual purpose. They probably made some commitments and decisions when they were younger, and you can hold on to some of those things. Sometimes those people do come back. Where they're going to spend eternity and stuff, I get that, and every mom and dad is going to have that kind of painful thing. But because she's still talking to you and because she's even talking about faith issues, that means you're still safe to her. I think as a mom, what we can do is pray. What we can do is continue to show love and mercy and be their greatest cheerleader if they have doubts. God's okay with doubts. Doubters are welcome here. That's what we need to say in the church sometimes. Then with you, this is where you're going to have to hear the words of comfort from the Lord. I would really challenge you to look at the scriptures that are comforting scriptures to you because there are scriptures that are comforting and there are scriptures that have some pretty cool promises about our kids. That doesn't take away your pain or hurt, please hear that. There's nothing that can do that. That's very deeply painful. But when you deal with that and share with it in community and when you look at those words of scripture and you relinquish your kids to God, he's their heavenly father. He wants them back too. Sometimes they're pretty stubborn and sometimes they've moved into disobedience and loss of faith. I understand that. But it's never too late. All you can do is be the best version of you possible. It puts them into disequilibrium when they know your faith and the depth of your faith and you still show them love. No matter what, the bottom line is they're asking the question, "Does Mom still love me?" You can love them with an unconditional love, just like the love God has for us, with them and still be in pain about it. It's not time for us to preach on this; it's time for us to show them the love. I kind of think you're probably doing it; it's just you're in the middle messy part. Remember that when a pastor is speaking about prodigals, he's using it in general terms and not in a specific term with your own children.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: It's so interesting, and I'm glad you bring that point up, Jim. I think back to my own life. I came to know Jesus in Vacation Bible School. Honestly, I was a prodigal. I think about that period of my life where God wasn't in my car; I would say God was probably hanging onto the bumper as I was driving recklessly because I had lost heart, I'd lost my faith, and I wasn't following him. I think there's a verse that I just want to give you today because it's for prodigals like me, and it's Romans 11:29. It says the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. Now, what is salvation? What is salvation, Cat?
Guest Cat: Trusting in the Lord and believing that Jesus Christ is God's son.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: Is it a gift of salvation?
Guest Cat: Yes.
Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer: I received the gift of salvation in Vacation Bible School and then became a prodigal. You know what? I did exactly what Jim said. I went through a lot of hard times, made a lot of really bad decisions, and yet the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. He hung on to me even though he was holding onto the bumper of my car for lack of better words. I still had my salvation. There might be some people hearing me that are like, "I think you can lose your salvation." I'm not here to spar with you. I'm saying the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, Romans 11:29. I can sink my teeth into that, the hope that Jim is talking about and I'm so glad he shared because he wanted to give you hope. But I also want to give you hope in a story my own that I came back to surrendering myself to him again, not just for salvation but for trust in life. Now I know that I know that I know who he is. You could have asked me at a period of my life and it would have been like, "No, where is he?" I even have a chapter in my book, *Where is God Now?*, because I had lost faith and heart. Cat, you should get Dr. Jim Burns's book, it's in the store.
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